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Roguelikes, you all love 'em, you all play 'em right? Gungeon, Spelunky, Isaac, Hades.
Well... Not really.
Roguelikes as the name implies are games "like" or "mimicking the gameplay of" the game "Rogue." That is to say they're tile and turn based strategy-rpgs with permadeath and procedural generation.
So things like Nethack
Things like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
things like Angband
Many of you are now thinking "what about Isaac, what about Spelunky, if they dont fit as roguelikes, then surely they fit as roguelites, right?"
After all the term "roguelite" was coined from Rogue Legacy as google trends would have you believe... Right? Well no.
We can trace the term "roguelite" back as far as 2009 on the penny arcade forums.
Google trends however do not show when a term was created, merely when the term was first searched on google. Those are two different metrics you're trying to measure there. As of recent they're similar, but back in '09 or 2013? Google wasnt as big, it wasnt the pervasive cyber giant it is today so its trends are less reliable if you go back a decade and loose change.
Well What does the penny arcade forum post say about roguelites?
"They're Roguelites. If you're familiar with the genre and looking for a challenge look past, but they're good for new players and those that may enjoy the genre but don't consider the "die, restart" nature of it appealing"~Glal, responding to a question of the Mystery Dungeon games, 2009 penny arcade forums.
This tells us several things.
Firstly: that roguelites are meta-progress laden roguelikes.
Secondly: the way it's stated gives context clues to there being earlier mentions of the term roguelite that we are not privy to. Lastly and most obviously: the term "roguelite" has its origins several years prior to Rogue Legacy, explicitly referring to turn and tile games.
At this point you're probably asking "where does this leave things like Isaac, like Spelunky, like Gungeon, like Hades?"
The short answer: Nowhere. It leaves them nowhere.
The long answer: It shouldnt really leave them anywhere, the same way it doesn't leave Diablo 3, Titan Quest, Neverwinter Nights, or Path of Exile anywhere.
None of those are roguelikes, they're ARPGs, yet diablo was directly inspired by Moria.
So why do with Hades, Gungeon, Spelunky etc, what you wouldn't do with the ARPG genre?
Why mash them into a turn and tiled genre that they share little to no gameplay with?
Why redefine roguelike as procedural generation + permadeath when those two factors are the least impactful to rogue and the roguelike genre?
No seriously, test it out for yourself. You could add savestates to rogue. You could play Project Zomboid and then later realize "oh damn this game has a map?! I thought it was randomly generated!"
You could play Elder Scrolls Arena or Elder Scrolls Daggerfall and delete your save on death.
Did adding save states to rogue change its gameplay, and therefore change its genre? No? Why not?
Did realising Project Zomboid isn't procedurally generated change its gameplay, and therefore its genre? No? Again why not?
Did playing either of the first Elder Scrolls' games with self imposed permadeath change its genre? No? Again why not?
Roguelikes and roguelites are turn and tile based games, because that is what the game that defines the two genres is. To say otherwise is to make it harder and harder to find actual roguelikes and roguelites. For people who can see and people who are able bodied, having a turn based genre might not seem like much, but roguelikes and roguelites as tiled and turned genres are great for people who cant play real-time games.
People who are partially or wholly blind, people without motor skills, people who dont have use of all four limbs.
People like me.
If you take away nothing else from this article, take this: "the philosophies of 'videogames are for everyone!' and 'turns and tiles shouldnt define a genre' are mutually exclusive philosophies."
Well... Not really.
Roguelikes as the name implies are games "like" or "mimicking the gameplay of" the game "Rogue." That is to say they're tile and turn based strategy-rpgs with permadeath and procedural generation.
So things like Nethack
Things like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
things like Angband
Many of you are now thinking "what about Isaac, what about Spelunky, if they dont fit as roguelikes, then surely they fit as roguelites, right?"
After all the term "roguelite" was coined from Rogue Legacy as google trends would have you believe... Right? Well no.
We can trace the term "roguelite" back as far as 2009 on the penny arcade forums.
Google trends however do not show when a term was created, merely when the term was first searched on google. Those are two different metrics you're trying to measure there. As of recent they're similar, but back in '09 or 2013? Google wasnt as big, it wasnt the pervasive cyber giant it is today so its trends are less reliable if you go back a decade and loose change.
Well What does the penny arcade forum post say about roguelites?
"They're Roguelites. If you're familiar with the genre and looking for a challenge look past, but they're good for new players and those that may enjoy the genre but don't consider the "die, restart" nature of it appealing"~Glal, responding to a question of the Mystery Dungeon games, 2009 penny arcade forums.
This tells us several things.
Firstly: that roguelites are meta-progress laden roguelikes.
Secondly: the way it's stated gives context clues to there being earlier mentions of the term roguelite that we are not privy to. Lastly and most obviously: the term "roguelite" has its origins several years prior to Rogue Legacy, explicitly referring to turn and tile games.
At this point you're probably asking "where does this leave things like Isaac, like Spelunky, like Gungeon, like Hades?"
The short answer: Nowhere. It leaves them nowhere.
The long answer: It shouldnt really leave them anywhere, the same way it doesn't leave Diablo 3, Titan Quest, Neverwinter Nights, or Path of Exile anywhere.
None of those are roguelikes, they're ARPGs, yet diablo was directly inspired by Moria.
So why do with Hades, Gungeon, Spelunky etc, what you wouldn't do with the ARPG genre?
Why mash them into a turn and tiled genre that they share little to no gameplay with?
Why redefine roguelike as procedural generation + permadeath when those two factors are the least impactful to rogue and the roguelike genre?
No seriously, test it out for yourself. You could add savestates to rogue. You could play Project Zomboid and then later realize "oh damn this game has a map?! I thought it was randomly generated!"
You could play Elder Scrolls Arena or Elder Scrolls Daggerfall and delete your save on death.
Did adding save states to rogue change its gameplay, and therefore change its genre? No? Why not?
Did realising Project Zomboid isn't procedurally generated change its gameplay, and therefore its genre? No? Again why not?
Did playing either of the first Elder Scrolls' games with self imposed permadeath change its genre? No? Again why not?
Roguelikes and roguelites are turn and tile based games, because that is what the game that defines the two genres is. To say otherwise is to make it harder and harder to find actual roguelikes and roguelites. For people who can see and people who are able bodied, having a turn based genre might not seem like much, but roguelikes and roguelites as tiled and turned genres are great for people who cant play real-time games.
People who are partially or wholly blind, people without motor skills, people who dont have use of all four limbs.
People like me.
If you take away nothing else from this article, take this: "the philosophies of 'videogames are for everyone!' and 'turns and tiles shouldnt define a genre' are mutually exclusive philosophies."
